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Discussione: [ASM] Commodore64 Utility

  1. #61
    Scalatore di Ranking L'avatar di Pierluigi
    Data Registrazione
    Jan 2016

    Re: [ASM] Commodore64 Utility

    kymya renditi utile e programma per pc una versione di hattrick da giocare offline

  2. #62

    Re: [ASM] Commodore64 Utility

    Mi piage questo thread trovato in un gruppo .

    I wanted to pose a question to this group, mainly for the purpose of me attaining knowledge. It is mostly directed towards programmers:

    What is the appeal of programming on a C64 today? Is it mainly nostalgia, or is it something that the C64 can do that is simply more difficult using today's computers, e.g. a more direct connection from the language to the hardware (without the layers and layers of abstractions, toolkits, libraries, etc.)?

    Disclosure: I am 40 years old, learned to program on a C64 (BASIC) when I was 12 years old, graduated computer science, and now work as a JavaScript/CSS front-end developer.
    I like the simplicity of the 40x25 and 80x25 screen, and it’s a bit of a trip back in time to play with BASIC and assembler on a vintage platform.
    Once Windows and the web became popular , PC programming got to be a lot less fun... it became a race to keep up with the latest frameworks and APIs, rather than focusing on solid programming techniques.
    Consequently, for work, I have to juggle half a dozen languages and APIs, but for fun, I can still code in the same BASIC and ASM I learned 30+ years ago.
    I've been programming for the past 20 years. C, php, node basic, java, but I really cut my teeth with assembler on atmels 8 bit chips. I just recently started looking at 6502, so no nostalgia there.. but maybe it gives the sensation of achievement.. getting stuff on screen and watching it move is always satisfying, maybe it's just that it's a different set of challenges than I am faced with at work.. but it does feel "more like programming" somehow. And the best thing is that I don't need to think about flexbox and other css madness
    Also: you have an actual human chance of getting to know everything that happens, down every instruction and it's effect on the various hardware. I have a chance of really really understanding every single thing that leads to the pixels forming a letter on the screen on a c64. That's very intriguing to me. Good luck figuring out what actually happens when you do a <b>wut</b>
    Everything now is API’s,
    Nothing like getting at the H/W direct.
    I'm with you on this question :-) Same "travel" through life. Been programming on the C64 since I was 9 years old and today I'm 45 and also graduated computer science, and now working with C# WPF making custom controls for companies that needs them specialized.
    For me its the fact that you program bare metal and the contraints of the architecture is very fun to work with. I am also a full time full stack developer (with heavy focus on UX) and find C64 programming to be rather boring and there is always some new shitty javacript framework you have to learn for each customer. The fun has simply gone out of the programming imo, or I am just getting old.
    The fun thing with the C64 is that once you have done a bit of assembly programming and learned the hardware you feel that you can master it eventually. Its rather impossible to master anything with modern frameworks as what you learned is obsolete in 6 months time. Whatever you choose is only as good as there are stack overflow articles for finding the quirk that doesnt work in your code. Sometimes they are never fixed and you are left to upgrade to a new version or switch frameworks or shoehorn some fix that likely breaks on the next browser version from Microsoft (hopefully not anymore as they are switching to Chromium).
    At 50 it is the occasional trip back in time when the TV was used, programs were completely understood and the electronics could be easily fixed. And mum was complaining when the weather is good you should be out riding your bike!
    CBM Basic 2.0 is one of the simplest dialect of BASIC out of there.
    Basically, it's training wheels for programming on a simple machine that allows full control over one of the simplest hardware.
    Programming in basic is the same as building an arcade Joystick, or a Tapuino... you get to work on something so simple that requires just the basics of what you're doing, and when you've done, you're ready to move on something better
    Well I'm a little different than the rest (not a surprised to my wife). For me its a few things. As everyone said nostalgia is there. But also yes it was a simpler time, and you could master both the software and hardware.
    It was a lot closer to the hardware and you were in control. It was your own work. I got to know a lot of basic, but never into assembly when I was 11. I wish I had, but didn't have an assembler or the know how to expand memory hardware and then put the assembler there to then write code in the full 64 memory. I did learn instructions to a machine, and to think creatively or to tighten my code because every bit counted. I remember a program called REMover to actually take out REM statements when you were running of out space!
    Now I actually have gotten back because I want to understand assembly better, like others said you are so far removed these days with thing stacked on another, and virtual machines even. I want to understand the hardware better and its functioning. So even the old 64 does that. I also have some satisfaction in going back and 'getting' things I didn't before, even if not really valuable anymore.
    But unlike others here I am not a professional programmer, I did a minor in Comp Sci with my Chemistry degree. Mostly in Pascal of all things and a bit of C. So my time is limited and I don't get to it as much as I would like. I also find the IDEs a pain and in the way. But iOS insist you use it. At least Swift is nice and clean unlike Objective C (yuck). And I started a bit of Python as it seems to be blowing Java away. Anyway that is my long winded story.
    Also, I can start an 8 bit computer and plot a graph or do some math in about 30 seconds. That’s harder to do in a modern programming environment,,, by the time I start up Visual Studio and create a project... I’ve done the calculation I need in an 8 or 16 bit BASIC computer.
    Personally, its a mix of many things:
    * So many things are based on 6502 that programming on one 6502 = experience points on others
    * 6502 programming gives me more insight into ARM assembly which was designed and simulated on it - a lot of 6502ism made its way into ARM
    * Understanding that which was a mystery then - I never understood how BASIC worked - it was "just there" and made the machine do things (slowly...) - assembly made it go faster but was so much more "alien" than BASIC - all these years later, I have worked through he BASIC and KERNAL ROM source and now understand - the magic has become science
    * Retroprogramming helps develop and keep coding habits that help in all later programming - looking at C code or virtual machine code like Python - you see it through the prism of a retroprogrammer's experience with shortcuts, limitations, elegant designs, and plain hackery that inspire different kinds of coding and design for modern machines
    * And of course, mastery of the machine. If you can't program it, you're just using what others programmed for it.
    «Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I don't like that attitude. I can assure them it is much more serious than that». (Bill Shankly)

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